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Optimus Prime

The Case of Reports, Accusations and Defamation.

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Hello Community.

We recently faced a huge criticism regarding our action of unbanning few players, which was expected as the reporter claimed to have put many days in creation of those reports. We have a policy of not sharing any of the video (even to reporter or the one who reported) to have fair process, as the reported player too won't get to know what actual content he/she was reported for (they only know what is been told as a reason of ban). However, with the recent unban of specifically 2 players, the reporter got triggered and with his friends (or maybe supporters) begins accusations against the staff of being biased, toxic behavior towards other, racist comments and many more objectionable chats (which according to me, makes the matter worse). We expected that reporter would see some rationale behind the decision as there goes much of our time as well for investigation and that we don't do anything silently, rather everything is reviewed many times before taking any action (ban/unban).

We have taken relatable actions against the recent incident that happened in #main, some of them have got temp ban, some of them perma ban, some got mute, depending on the level of off-topic chats, words used and behavior observed.

Back to the main point of this topic, This all started roughly 1-2 weeks back, when someone reported to us about player using unfair means to kill MvP at Bio3 and Bio4, which by all means, we take it seriously. The report contained 4 videos (which some of you might have seen, as the reporter said on #main that they will show anyone videos of what was reported).

Video 1: Killing MvP[RevivalRO]                          Video 2: Killing MvP[RevivalRO]

Video 3: GRF Editing[Not RevivalRO]                   Video 4: Demo of Video (Large MvP)[Not RevivalRO]

After these videos were received, we did suspected GRF Editing at first as the report mentioned, but due to some protections in place, and few other protections that we included after 1st report, that seems not the case (2nd Report was made after more protections were added to the server). Attached is the Screenshot if someone tries to enlarge all MvPs (check mvp_slave attachment). More on this topic later below. 

This left us with believing usage of 3rd party programs. We started investigation into it and tried to reproduce it, we did our best to do it with same equips and did not achieve that speed, which lead us to believe that indeed, 3PP was used, We Immediately issued a ban to those accounts. However, we do give the players to appeal in such cases, which seems fair. Banned players approached us and described how they did it, also agreed to do recordings/streaming of spam and other things that were told. Their method seems a bit convincing and they were allowed to appeal. We had taken the video of Task Manager, Keyboard, Mouse, Recordings (In game) and desktop video. All of these videos were taken when the player was warped to helpdesk and given the chance to prove the spam. The spam was achievable, we were not convinced with how we were not able to reproduce the same spam, revisited everything, and we had missed a little detail on equipments used. We tried it again and the spam of skill is indeed possible.

Those who were banned supported all our queries in respectable manner even though we believed they were wrong at first, we do accept our mistake and apologize for the mistakes made whenever it is so, we reversed the ban. This however does not go well with the reporter (and supporter/friends) which turned #main chat to toxic/racist/corrupt chat.

 

Technical Details about the Report:

This report involves 2 players:
1. Champion hunting in bio3
2. Soul Linker hunting in bio4

The reason, and I quote: "Suspected Using 3rd Party Programmed RPE or GRF Editor for Aiming Related" with the following suspected abuses:
- Enlarge MVP
- Lock & Fast Spam

Enlarged MVP:

Enlarged MVP involves GRF Editing; this is when a player, edits the GRF data file of ragnarok to show an MVP with an enlarged sprite.
This may have been possible if it was on any other case. However, the case submitted was showing bio3 and bio4 monsters. All of the monster on those maps uses the SAME SPRITE of the SAME CLASS (ie: Chen Ryu and Champion Chen will have the same sprite). Enlarging that one sprite will enlarge all of the monsters of that type. Even if only one class was modified it will serve less the player when all of the mobs that shares that sprite are enlarged.

Lock:

Locking a target in RRO is not that trivial. This can be observed in Cedi where in if the sniper decides to rebuff (Improve concentration, etc) they will lose the target. To counter this, the players will just keep the mouse hovering on the target, rebuff, then click again.
The first case presented shows the Champion tanking the bio3 monster himself. The monster does not move from its place and therefore it is easy to target, regardless if there are other monster on surrounding it (just dont keep moving the mouse around).
On the second case, in bio4, the monster is being tanked by another player; therefore the monster does not really move out of its place. It is still then an easy target for spamming skills.

Fast Spam:

The submitted video themselves does not show a spam that is not achievable. It can be done with the correct gears. This is where the two characters were banned initially. To prevent further abuse, we have decided to do initial testing and ban after the initial investigation. Both of their gears was copied and was tested for the fastest achievable skill spam.

  • The Champion's skill spam was tested on a player character (as it was easier to control than trying it on a monster). The skill he was using has animation delay, and therefore suppose to be not able to cast that fast. [Banned]

The Soul Linker's skill spam was tested on a similar setup. However, since Estun cannot be casted on a player without being stunned, it was decided that his after cast delay reduction gears are to be copied and tested on a a monster. The gears was copied on what is currently being used by the player; a direct item id to item id was done. Analyzing from this, he had only 15% aftercast delay reduction. The skill spam at the reported video needs at least 25% or more after cast delay reduction to work.

  • The skill spam was done again and was found to have a maximum casting too slow compared to the video presented. [Banned]

Appeal:

They gave their testimonies, and gave us some information that may help reproduce the alleged skill spam. The reported video was never given to them, therefore they had to give character details and hunting strategies.
The few things we have missed on the testings are as follows:

  • The champion was spamming while the monster is attacking him at 1 cell away. The test was conducted with a fellow GM a few cells away. The animation delay is done once the it hits the target, therefore making the skill spam achievable. [He was given a chance for ban review and to prove it can be done]

We were given a scenario on how the Soul Linker was hunting, and some details that will allow him to spam at that speed. We were told that one item we might have missed is the RDC Helm (we did a 1:1 copy but the script was not part of the copy). The RDC helm it seems is capable (when selected) of reducing aftercast delay by 10%. This gave a reasonable explanation on how the spam can be acheived.
A date was setup and they were allowed to login to their characters and was summoned to a controlled environment.
We had required them to provide us full screen recording with the task manager shown in the background showing no software that will do automated key press. We also required them to record the actual keyboard with them pressing on it showing also the screen where ragnarok is running.

The Champion not only show that the skill spam can be done, it also showed another thing. The real boss monster moves ahead of the other fake boss; and therefore making it easier to spot which one is the target. The boss was spawned multiple times and the Champion was able to kill the boss mob without ever missing or hitting the other monster. 

The Soul Linker's case was a little different; as the case built on him was that the skill spam is too fast to be done. Initially, we summoned the same monster that he was attacking. Same scenario as the champion, the real boss monster moves ahead of the others. This way he was able to do the skill spam without missing. The difference here is that he cannot tank the monster itself and was killed.  Since the report is that he had a tank, we opted to spawn a nearly immovable monster and let him cast on that. The skill spam shown to us was as fast as the reported video.

With the evidence presented, the banned players were able to successfully prove that they can do they Skill Spam, and maintain the target at the same time.
Part of Spam Proof: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1iH3_j1f20wN1RvIzyrg1vqF4EhuffsAc/view?usp=drivesdk

 

 

This is the only time where we made such a topic to show that, we do, go in-depth to check all reports, and we hope you trust us, that, we are not biased and detailed investigation is taken before any decision is made or reversed. Generating these kind of report do take time and explaining these, Compiling all these reports and making a post for every report is not feasible as it can be much longer than this report. We do hope you understand our take.

 

Regards,

RevivalRO

mvp_slave.jpg

TM.png

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A bit slightly not on topic with the case specific, but what I wanna say is; perhaps change a bit how you guys handle those things.

 

I know privacy and identity protection has high value; but in my opinion A LOT, REALLY A LOT drama could have been avoided, if you would share some of the innocence proofs with the reporter.

I can understand why reporter feel a bit bumped, when they do their best to get good evidence and all; and all they then get in the end is basically a "lol no you're wrong, bye" and need take that as granted.

 

It becomes especially clear when we consider the current community climate, which is incredible toxic ( I mean you saw the fallouts that happen, just when a little thing out of the norm happen, people lose their shit). Most people are incredibly suspicious of the staff (bias, favoritism, corruption etc), so you can't really expect from them to be like "oh GM x said I was wrong, for sure I will believe him!".

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6 minutes ago, gcq said:

A bit slightly not on topic with the case specific, but what I wanna say is; perhaps change a bit how you guys handle those things.

 

I know privacy and identity protection has high value; but in my opinion A LOT, REALLY A LOT drama could have been avoided, if you would share some of the innocence proofs with the reporter.

I can understand why reporter feel a bit bumped, when they do their best to get good evidence and all; and all they then get in the end is basically a "lol no you're wrong, bye" and need take that as granted.

 

It becomes especially clear when we consider the current community climate, which is incredible toxic ( I mean you saw the fallouts that happen, just when a little thing out of the norm happen, people lose their shit). Most people are incredibly suspicious of the staff (bias, favoritism, corruption etc), so you can't really expect from them to be like "oh GM x said I was wrong, for sure I will believe him!".

Hello,

Acceptable argument. However, one of the staff tried to explain following:

1) The limitation of video recording received: Video was recorded in 24fps, which means 24 frames per second, but the video was encoded using MP4, which usually stores key every 100 frames, resulting in missing some key aspects of how the lock and spam was achieved.

2) Reporter was given the case on how the players proved their case and we have taken all recordings to come to this decision of reversal of ban.

3) Reported player had tanks which makes spamming Esma/Estun not so difficult

Reporter however raised points to GM like:

1) What kind old reports are acceptable if videos are not accepted (response to point 1 mentioned above), and the reporter claimed they know rpe is banned as per previous case and this should be acceptable.

2) Reporter focused on locking of MvP (and relating to grf edit most likely), which we explained above.

3) Ask for raw video of everything.

When It was mentioned that this decision of unban is already taken, we received messages(or you can treat them as blackmails) like "Give me videos or ban me", whereas in game they started talking something like "I can't play with this cheater, ban him or me". Other than that, other chats are visible on #main as aftermath of what happened.

 

In short, it was not only "you wrong, we right", we tried to explain as much as we can, just without the videos (same as reported players too don't get to see the reporter video), but when things go into blackmailing or accusing [within few hours of getting reply], we can't do much, we are also humans (and robots) who deal with real life and not be online 24/7 to instantly reply to all queries.

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14 minutes ago, Optimus Prime said:

Hello,

Acceptable argument. However, one of the staff tried to explain following:

1) The limitation of video recording received: Video was recorded in 24fps, which means 24 frames per second, but the video was encoded using MP4, which usually stores key every 100 frames, resulting in missing some key aspects of how the lock and spam was achieved.

2) Reporter was given the case on how the players proved their case and we have taken all recordings to come to this decision of reversal of ban.

3) Reported player had tanks which makes spamming Esma/Estun not so difficult

Reporter however raised points to GM like:

1) What kind old reports are acceptable if videos are not accepted (response to point 1 mentioned above), and the reporter claimed they know rpe is banned as per previous case and this should be acceptable.

2) Reporter focused on locking of MvP (and relating to grf edit most likely), which we explained above.

3) Ask for raw video of everything.

When It was mentioned that this decision of unban is already taken, we received messages(or you can treat them as blackmails) like "Give me videos or ban me", whereas in game they started talking something like "I can't play with this cheater, ban him or me". Other than that, other chats are visible on #main as aftermath of what happened.

 

In short, it was not only "you wrong, we right", we tried to explain as much as we can, just without the videos (same as reported players too don't get to see the reporter video), but when things go into blackmailing or accusing [within few hours of getting reply], we can't do much, we are also humans (and robots) who deal with real life and not be online 24/7 to instantly reply to all queries.

Yes, I understand that, but the issue is really that right now (and for that matter in the pat), there is a big lack of trust between the player base and the staff.

 

Blackmailing and treats aren't ok; but in my opinion providing the innocence video also to the reporter would had helped a lot (and I mean, the video DOES ALREADY EXIST, so all of the time it takes is copy paste a link). If the reporter accepts that or not, is not your issue. But at least it's a "physical" evidence and not just a "he said/she said" thing.

 

Basically, what I am trying to say is: the player base - GM relationship has no trust (hence the main chat melt downs that immediately goes into "gms are so bias and corrupted, same as Ancy, etc", and all other nasty stuff).

But, the report system with explaining the other party that "we came to the conclusion x period" without video/picture evidence relies on trust. Not to forget that not everyone is reasonable when argue with them (no offense to anyone), I know that is basically none of your business if they don't believe the staff, but it might help them better understand.

 

I know it is up to you guys to decide to change something in the system, but frankly with the melt downs I have seen; I doubt it will get better, since the common mindset is " gm = bad" no matter what.

 

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3 hours ago, Kecikk said:

I think you should do with same environment, not just summon MVP in "empty room"..

Why does that matter? If you can aim the MVP in the "natural habitat", then you can aim it in the empty room too.

And beside that, wouldn't that even false the result even more, since you have no controlled conditions (like looking out for the other monsters and the MVP)? The report was mainly the aiming and spam, the video proven that the spam is possible (as you seen, it was a record file),

 

But welps, that is nothing we can judge over anyways.

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Q > Was the champion always with the linker when he kill it as ur statement?

as i can see in the video that arid link, was 2 char different time & they not together2 as u said =D

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So at last, becoz of Admin protect he friend and lost 2 Guild member 😂 so using grf editor and RPE is legal 👌🏻 you just need be a friend of Admin/GM 😉

Edited by Hyuna Yubin

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19 minutes ago, Hyuna Yubin said:

So at last, becoz of Admin protect he friend and lost 2 Guild member 😂 so using grf editor and RPE is legal 👌🏻 you just need be a friend of Admin/GM 😉

It is now clear you didn't read anything posted above. We don't care if any player leaves because their demand of banning other players cannot be fulfilled, those 2 guild members want us to be partial and favor them.

We do expected this kind of comments, as whatever we do, we would receive same comments from other side. Anyways this decision is final. Those who can read know what happened by checking all the proof submitted and all other videos.

 

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This shit is super easy to do with the right items as i can see the mvp is attacking the character, means the mvp is on one cell and the character is on one cell and no one is moving nor the mvp nor the player, even a 1 day old ro player can aim tht way....and about the spam with the right gears its pretty easy to spam esma and infact the dsc fo thing is pretty normal...i can reproduce much faster speed than that...and there are doom champs who do it even  more faster than me or the video which was taken especially with the use of solomons seal and depending on what ping the players play on...Kindly stop defaming the server or the admins for your own ego...If u cant compete the players dont curse them atleast...I have seen skeletiny kill paladin mvp infront of my eyes...the guy knows what he is doing and its commendable.....i have been noticing this from very beginning of me joining this server that  The avengers and Owning guild  keep targetting players if they outplay them. Lately I heard u guys also targetting waldorf saying Rpe cart termination and miko too and kurt too for his tracking. So basically what do u guys want? the server shouldnt have better players than you guys or better strong guilds to come in the server and compete? If anyone plays better than you thats Rpe for you? If you guys are so expert in recording rpe Or grf Or whatever means you guys ur self have used the software or 3pp whatever it is or maybe still use it? 🤨...Get a fucking life, instead of recording videos start competing them that would definately make you better than them and yes for your information even i was banned for my champion by report of TA and Gms never say out the reporters name  nor gave me the video either, I figured out my reporter when the reporter himself confronted me  its just thier GM policy and about corruption like The avengers guild leader zod  and other players are accusing on main chat...If gms were corrupted i shud be still banned, I have just donated 50 euros to this server which wont make a living of any of the admins here or serve the server in anyway and I am pretty stringent of not donating on a online game, none of my characters have high tier gear, my little bit of donations will come only on sales and I also had to reproduce the speed of my combo the same way these guys did and i wasnt even lucky enough to get my main account to do so, I had to make an alt with no gears to reproduce the speed of the video, so if u expecting the video u aint gonna get it according to game policy neither did I but still you won as the gms were forced to release the video. Guys have some shame you guys are high tier guilds with high tier items none of the other guilds have items which u guys have... you guys shud infact support and pillar other players and new guilds rather you are on verge of targeting them so they get banned and breaking the community. Kindly refrain from doing so or i dont see a good future for our server. Done Period.

IGN: SpadesXX

Edited by Nirvana
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Quiet frankly.

At this point the whole argument (again) is just a vendetta.

 

This kind of circle repeated so often by now.

Something happens/Someone got ban/Something got reported > GMs took care of it > GMs came to a different conclusion as the initiation party wanted > Initiation party starts a witch hunt and conspiracy theory against the subject/matter and GMs (in hope they get their will (?)) > Everything explodes in a giant shit show.

 

Honestly, it is no secret I love watching a good shit show, but it slowly get tiring.

-This is now going to be a bit half off-topic rant-

Every single time a thing is not going as the initiating person/party wanted/pictured it; a giant shit show start which would make even a 5 year old be ashamed. This time the Staff even tried to reason with SHOWING EVIDENCES, and thought processes, which btw: THEY DON'T NEED TO.

(And on point of that, with that whole "I am write and nothing else" mindset; evidence will NEVER be ENOUGH. How are the GMs suppose to proof innocence? Does the reporter need to sit behind the target and breath into their ear to see they don't cheat and accept that?)

And yet everyone still throws himself on the ground and screams "Corruption! Bias! Bad GMs!". Yes it sucks when something isn't as it seems to be, but that is no reason to start conspiracies out of thin air, just because you didn't got what you wanted.

What I just want to say is, maybe, just MAYBE try step a bit towards the other point of view, and not only your own. The environment in the server became so hostile and toxic, every little thing leads into a fallout. You suggest out of the fun a new mechanic some don't like? > See it as personal attack and throw every insult you got. A argument doesn't go the way you like it? > Throw insult at the other person.

 

But I guess things will never change, because the own ego is much more important, and god forbid we accept that we are not 100% always in the right.

GMs are always bad and bias. They aren't humans.

God, I really hate this "community".

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